Monday, October 18, 2010

So I guess I just made this up right?

A week or so ago over At Renee's place on a post about gendered violence and there was one particular comment by the user CrysT that struck my fancy:
This myth that men and boys are shamed for hitting women and girls is an out-and-out lie, and I'm getting sick of MRA and Nice Guy types vomiting out whenever this topic comes up.
I've pretty much concluded that the only people that believe this silly shit are men who actually did get away with or were encourage to commit violence against girls/women and people who weren't raised as boys/men. And I actually had the opportunity to witness such an example in action this past weekend.

So I'm hanging out at the house of this family I'm really cool with (the mom even calls me her adopted son) and the son (10yr old) and the youngest daughter (23 I think) were arguing. At first it was all verbal and nothing that any who has sibling would be shocked to hear. Well then out of nowhere the sister walks up behind the brother and slaps him in the back of the head. Dude got up and hit her back.

Pop Quiz.

What do you think the mom said after the smoke cleared?

She told the brother that she had better not ever see him hit a girl again.

Yes this grown ass young adult woman escalated from verbal to physical and HE is the one that gets chastised by mom?

So in the end while that CrysT person is correct that there are instances in which boys/men get a free pass on violence against women I stand by my words that that person is simply incorrect to think that boys/men aren't shamed for hitting girls/women. And no amount of stats (in a clear attempt to try to prove that it doesn't happen) will bury that fact.

And because I'm feeling a bit fiery I offer a preemptive "Fuck You" to anyone that tries to deny shit like this happens. Its high time that people quit acting like the only double standards that are in play are ones that favor men over women.

14 comments:

Moji said...

I agree...

Using the incident as a metaphor, I would say our sense of justice should be anti-oppressive. The fact that our societies suffer from Patriarchy does not mean we have to be against men.

Danny said...

Hey there Moji.

The fact that our societies suffer from Patriarchy does not mean we have to be against men.
Which is why I think that word is useless. Yes there are patriarchal forces and structures at work but to try to call society a patriarchy leaves out A LOT of what going on (in terms of gender).

Sonja said...

"suffer"??

Way to go with making out like guys are all evil, Moji. Patriarchy is just one form of society. There's Absolutely fuck all to say a Matriarchy would be any better.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Boys used to beat the shit out of me, and maybe half the time, someone might say they shouldn't do that. But I know of none actually punished on my behalf, not a single one. Instead I heard "Boys will be boys" or "oh that means he LIKES you!" and other bullshit like that.

These awful boys might be the whole reason I became a feminist... along with being denied the drums! :P But they really and truly did exist. Now, I was born in 1957 into a working class Ohio neighborhood, and perhaps you are talking about a period of time AFTER the advent of second-wave feminism made punching girls uncool? But when I was growing up, I was basically told I should just stay out of their way. Boys will be boys.

Danny said...

Hey Daisy:
But they really and truly did exist.
If you gathered the impression that I was trying to say that such boys did not exist then please allow me to straighten that out by saying that I know they do. My problem with that comment over at Renee's place is that that person was trying to say that the existence of such boys actually proved that the things Jim and I were talking were false. That is not the case and this is not a zero sum game (funny how feminists are so quick to say its not a zero sum game but then engage in zero sum game like tactics like that).

...and perhaps you are talking about a period of time AFTER the advent of second-wave feminism made punching girls uncool?
I'm gonna have to disagree with that because for one my generation of boys got that "you're not supposed to hit girls" mentality drilled into us by men and women from your generation meaning it came from somewhere. And two that somewhere is a beast that has existed for ages, chivalry, which predates feminism by quite a bit.

And let me tell you that while you were attacked by boys while you were growing up I was occasionally attacked by girls and there was no recourse because figures of authority (teachers, parents, etc...) were thinking one thing, a boy I needed to "man up" and not let myself get beat by a girl. Funny thing is when I fought back I got in trouble not for hitting someone but for specifically hitting a girl.

In short both of the scenarios we speak of are real, have happened, and do happen. How in the world are we going to fix the gender imbalances of the world if people keep pretending that the only imbalances that exist are those that favor men/boys over girls/women?

Paul said...

Also Daisy, in your scenario you could have (as in you would have been allowed to, not that you neccesarily had the ability to,) fight back. Whereas a boy is in a no-win scenario when a girl decides she wants to fight with him even if she happens to be bigger than he is.

I remember when I was in grade school and girl picked a fight with a boy in my class, he tried to push her away and leave then she threw a folding chair at his back. Guess who was punished?

Danny said...

Also Daisy, in your scenario you could have (as in you would have been allowed to, not that you neccesarily had the ability to,) fight back.
Not so sure about that Paul. Depending on certain factors (like location, culture, and era) its very possible that if Daisy had fought back she would have chastised for being "unlady like" for fighting. But at the same time depending on those same factors boys can be stuck in a no-win scenario.

Funny thing that is. In my experience when a girl picks a fight with a boy one of three things will go down:
1. Boy fights back, wins, and people come down on him for fighting a girl.
2. Boy fights back, loses, and gets taunted for getting beat by a girl.
3. Boy refuses to fight and gets taunted for being afraid to fight a girl.

And I'm willing to bet that Daisy (and countless other girls) have a no win scenario too. The task at hand is to get rid of ALL of those scenarios, not just the ones that girls face.

Paul said...

good point. Things up here in Blue State Country tend to tilt more toward the "no-win" for boys though, at least according to my observations

DaisyDeadhead said...

Yeah, I learned to beat the shit out of boys too. And true, they got laughed at and would slink away in shame. Good, I just wanted them to GO AWAY.

Where (and when) I was growing up, kids stuff was kids stuff and adults rarely (if ever) intervened at ALL. You would instead go get a big sister, brother, cousin, friend, etc to help you out and intervene. In fact, this was *seen* as THEIR task, not as an adult's task.

Interesting differences in culture.

Danny said...

Speaking of siblings Daisy do you have any brothers?

The reason I ask is because when it came to intervening on behalf of a younger sibling I think (or at least in my experience) there seemed to be an implication that a big brother looks out for his little siblings (and thats double if its a little sister).

Anna said...

Excellent point. A double standard is a double standard no matter who it's at the expense of or who it benefits. It has to work both ways, or not at all.

And while male-on-female violence is rightly taken seriously because men are generally capable of inflicting more damage on the probably smaller woman, that should never let women off the hook. You're right that men are chastised still for hitting women and rightly so - but there are also violent women who, even if they're physically weaker than the guy they hit, have him at an advantage because he won't retaliate - if he did he'd automatically become the bad guy. (And I'm really sick of the worst aspects of MRA/feminists and their oppression olympics bickering about who's worse off.)

(Heh, I'm an only child and I've always noticed that inter-sibling violence seems to almost be treated as a slapstick/comedy routine no matter what the gender - especially when they're small. Almost like a natural thing.)

Anna said...

"Its high time that people quit acting like the only double standards that are in play are ones that favor men over women. "

Sorry to double post, but while many feminists are acting this way, the MRA are doing the exact opposite, acting as if the only double standards are the ones that favour women.

Nice to find a nice neutral and rational person like you for a change.

Danny said...

And while male-on-female violence is rightly taken seriously because men are generally capable of inflicting more damage on the probably smaller woman, that should never let women off the hook.
I think part of the problem is that when it comes to making that comparison people tend to go to great lengths to find anything they can to find ways to make male against female violence look worse than female against male violence. Women tend to use weapons and have others (usually other men) commit violence on their behalf. I think if people took those things into account things would not look so different.

You're right that men are chastised still for hitting women and rightly so - but there are also violent women who, even if they're physically weaker than the guy they hit, have him at an advantage because he won't retaliate - if he did he'd automatically become the bad guy.
This is something that a lot of people (and feminists seem to be the worst suspects despite constantly bragging that they are the only ones challenging the gender system) refuse to acknowledge. If such people were really about taking violence seriously they wouldn't stop at "but she's just a small weak woman. what can she do to a big strong man?" as the ultimate defense against pointing violence women.

(And I'm really sick of the worst aspects of MRA/feminists and their oppression olympics bickering about who's worse off.)
Yes that's why I pretty much refuse to have anything to do with either group.

Danny said...

Sorry to double post, but while many feminists are acting this way, the MRA are doing the exact opposite, acting as if the only double standards are the ones that favour women.
Such a shame indeed. Both sides slinging mud acting like the gender they are pulling for are the only victims of this fucked up system.

I still stand by my words that if MRAs and feminists joined forces The System would not stand a chance against such a united front.

And thanks for dropping by Anna.

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