Sunday, March 29, 2009

This is a test

I actually read this post about 2 days ago and I have to say I was a bit angry but not for the expected reasons. Now I've had conversations with Renee before and they usually end up us on different ends but for the most part were always civil about it. I agree with a lot of what she has said on her blog in the last year (and I think her one year blogiversary is coming up) and I have also disagreed with a lot of what she has said (however I still say she is better off than most of recent regulars who have set up shop there and appointed themselves her protectors). This is one of those times I (mostly) disagree. However there is already a melee of stupidity on that post so I'll just keep my thoughts here.

I'm sure a feminist that reads about a man getting angry over that post would probably go into something about telling him to get mad for the right reasons. This would be an effort to redirect him because there is a good chance he is/was mad for the right reasons after reading this.

I've been taking lessons from the bunch at Feminist Critics on how to simply address issues without going off the deep end into sarcastic remarks and blind anger. This post is a test of those lessons.


This is discrimination and sexism and the mehnz trumpet that if feminazis really cared about equality, this would be an issue that we actively sought to change. It seems perfectly reasonable doesn’t it; that with all of the serious issues currently facing women today from sexual assault, domestic violence, FGM, inequality in employment, the double day, reduction in reproductive rights, and poverty, that we should seek to spend the precious few resources that we have fighting an industry that is male run about its essentialist portrayals of masculinity.(emphasis mine.)

Now after reading the constant barrages of feminists saying that men are the ones that need to take responsibility on some women's issues I find this almost funny. One could almost say its hypocritical. I do believe that everyone should lend a hand in all the problems that plague humanity but given how massive these problems are I can't blame people who dedicate their efforts to one set of issues. And I like the "precious few recources" part. There is no question that women's advocates command a lot power, a lot more than men's advocates. I'll get back to that emphasized part at the end.


Though they have allowed some women to take on some visible roles of importance by enlarge when we think of personalities that we deem of great importance they are male.

On hand I hear feminist minded people talk about the women who have fought hard to get to where they are. But as one can see it is very easy to spin that into being allowed to take those positions and make that progress.


Even in traditional situation comedies where the husband is presented as mindless ,it is not nearly as diminishing as it appears at first glance. The husband as idiot allows the male to abdicate his responsibilities as an equal partner of the household while selfishly seeking out his personal gratification. This supposed idiocy allows him a sense of freedom that is seldom granted to the female characters. Secure in the knowledge that the wife will cook the meals, balance the books, raise the children, and provide boring if guilt free marriage sex, the man is free to continue on in a state of perpetual childhood.

What Renee is missing here is this "abdication of his responsibility" is what makes men justifiably angry. Shows like that are sending the message that men are too incompetent to take on their share of the responsibility. And contrary to what she and her people have already decided we don't like that. If a show were to portray a woman as being too incompetent to perform tasks it would just as angering.


As we know, along with the freedom of adulthood comes greater responsibility. By changing the gender dynamic to present the woman as the alpha female, the infantalization of men in the situation comedy actually oppresses women, in that it forces us once again to take on multiple roles that are often time consuming and stressful.

Change that "actually" I emphasized to "also" and I am right on board with that. But her use of "actually" makes this look like an attempt to twist discrimination that hurts both men and women into something that might be bad for men but women are the real victims. And this has always been one of my problems with feminism (as well as most forms of activism). There is nothing wrong with drawing attention to the ways the groups one advocates for but when its done by actively trying to trivializing other groups its not healthy for anyone.


If the mehnz are so concerned with the damage that this is doing to the boys club they can appeal to the men that run the media to do something about it. (emphasis hers)

This is a tactic I've seen feminists use plenty of times. Instead of demonizing those in power they demonize the gender of those in power as if maleness in and of itself is evil. I don't declare myself an MRA but at least (for the most part) when they talk about their own issues they focus on the seat of power itself. When dads are wronged in family court they talk about the court system that cheated them not the gender of lawyers and judges. When they talk about the media that minimizes all domestic violence accept male against female they talk about the media that does said minimizing. Yes they do talk about feminists who perpetuate (and sometimes actively support) such things but even that gets twisted into blaming.


While that post by Renee can be somewhat informational this (and the comments over there) is mostly just another mudball being slung between men's and women's advocates who are actually very close to seeing eye to eye.

7 comments:

Renee said...

Just as I speak to the radical feminists that I believe that are doing damage to feminism men must speak to those that represent them. It should not be one more responsibility but on the shoulders of women. We have little to no control of the media and if you to expect us to spend our 70 cents on a dollar advocating this is ridiculous.
I believe that if the MRA spent more time fighting the issue than looking at women complaining that we don't help them something would be done about it. You see I don't believe that for all the vitriol spewed at representative masculinity in the media that this issue is really so troubling to the MRA crowd. This is just one more thing for them to crow about and scream at women about. How can we possibly be responsible when we are not in power?

Danny said...

We have little to no control of the media and if you to expect us to spend our 70 cents on a dollar advocating this is ridiculous.
About as ridiculous as banding all men together as if we are some collective when some of us do wrong.


You see I don't believe that for all the vitriol spewed at representative masculinity in the media that this issue is really so troubling to the MRA crowd. This is just one more thing for them to crow about and scream at women about.
And this is where you would be wrong. I get the feeling that some MRA critics actively choose to see only the vitriol because it helps them ignore their legitimate concerns.

How can we possibly be responsible when we are not in power?
The thing a lot of feminist minded people don't realize is that the men that are raising consciousness about their issues are in the minority and don't have the power you think they do.

Nia said...

In order for women to take responsibility on men’s issues, and men on women's, it has to be demanded, and something has to be given in return. It is no longer enough to simply say: “I’ll help you because what you are going through is wrong and helping you is the right, humane thing to do.”
Women do not demand reciprocity from men, i.e.“I’ll help you with your battle if you help me with mine.”
I was raised to help anyone regardless, and speak out against what is wrong regardless and not expect anything in return. I think that is the way it should be.
But in order to survive you have to become a bit selfish. I no longer have any interest in helping any group that would deem it beneath them to help my group or believes that my group’s interests are not to be taken seriously, or are not as important as theirs. I know it sounds selfish, but I think that one of the most effective ways to operate in modern society and to bring about any kind of change is simply to demand reciprocity.

Danny said...

Women do not demand reciprocity from men, i.e.“I’ll help you with your battle if you help me with mine.”
I don't know about women as a gender but I do often see from women's advocates recommendations that men need to embrace feminism in order to get men's issues resolved. That plus assurances that women come first in feminism amounts to the demand of men to put their own issues on the back burner while women's issues are resolved first.


I get what you're saying on the reciprocity and as much as I like and dislike about both sides I do see some of it often.

Renee said...

I still say it comes down to priorities., The bottom line is though you can point to a few examples as husband as idiot they are far more likely to see themselves positively rather than negatively represented in the MSM. If the few images that are negative towards masculinity once again I feel it is necessary to point out that men, not women control the media.

Danny said...

The bottom line is though you can point to a few examples as husband as idiot they are far more likely to see themselves positively rather than negatively represented in the MSM.
I seriously doubt that and even if that is just because they don't see it doesn't mean its not offensive (kinda like how privilege supposedly is).

If the few images that are negative towards masculinity once again I feel it is necessary to point out that men, not women control the media.
Again with you one trying to minimize how men are treated and then two binding us all by gender. It's interesting how you're willing to accept that women, women's advocates, people of different races, and people of different sexual orientation are not a monolith but all of that goes out the window when it comes to men.

BigFred said...

Renee:

Just as I speak to the radical feminists that I believe that are doing damage to feminism men must speak to those that represent them.

emphasis mine.

Which men represent us? The ones in corporations that are spewing out this crap? If they felt some sort of allegiance to men then why are they spewing out this crap in the first place? Surely men don't like being portrayed as idiotsm, especially men in power? Why would a group of men, men that are allegedly in power no less, wish to showcase their gender as the idiotic one? As Danny was saying men are not a monolith.

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